Charles Aznavour’s Shocking Interview: “Genocide or another word; it’s the same to me” (Part1)

17:16, October 7, 2011

What follows is a translation of the recent interview given by the famous singer/songwriter and Armenian Ambassador to Switzerland, Charles Aznavour (Shahnour Vaghenag Aznavourian) to the French-Armenian magazine Nouvelles d'Arménie.

Editor – On September 4 of this year, Charles Aznavour was interviewed on the popular “Vivement dimanche” French TV talk show by host Michel Drucker.

Drucker asked Aznavour about his views on the 1915 Armenian Genocide. In response, Aznavour said – The word itself (genocide) is disruptive and it upsets me as well. What I am saying here can be used against me by some Armenians, but I believe that’s not important. If the Turks are sincere enough to say that the word ‘genocide’ prevents them from doing anything, then let us come up with another word; just as long as the border between Armenia and Turkey is opened and the Turkish government thinks about starting a dialog with us.”

When the host observed that 1.5 million was a considerable number for such a tiny country, Aznavour responded: “2 or 1.5 million. It’s the same. Whether they murder 2 children, 1.5 million Armenians or 6 million Jews. It’s the same. They killed and wanted to kill. That’s what is important.”

Nouvelles d'Arménie –The “Vivement dimanche” interview also made a number of enemies for you; no?

Charles Aznavour – I’ve grown tired of all that. We will never realize our goals. Our enemies are waiting for those Armenians with any memories of the Genocide to die so that this matter can be put to rest once and for all. What country has ever helped us? Not a one. France recognized the genocide but will not do anymore. No country will ever come to our aid. Never.

Furthermore, the Arabs now carrying out revolutions want to create governments on the Kemalist model. This is a feather in the cap for Turkey that is growing richer and more influential. Turkey is already a member of the G-20. Turkey is no longer concerned that much about becoming members of the European Union.

And where are we going? In this process, Armenia is suffering. Each day the country is being emptied. In the near future it will resemble an empty snail shell. And who profits from this? Three Mafiosi families? All the while hundreds of thousands of poor people will be dispersed throughout the world. All this troubles me greatly. In the meantime we remain transfixed on the word “genocide” and the Turks use this to their advantage.

Thus, I ask the Turks the following – If those events weren’t genocide that what do you call the extermination of an entire people? What did you call it at the time? How did Ataturk describe that situation? What was it called prior to the coining of the term ‘genocide’? At least we should confess that those events constituted a massacre. If we get to this point then it will be a huge victory for us.

Armenia faces a huge threat and all linger on the word ‘genocide’. I don’t see how this helps the advancement of the country. Where is such logic taking us? Where are those people who criticize me for such views? What are they doing to help Armenia? When do they send money? Should I be taking lessons from these people? I was the first to give them such lessons. I discussed this with an Armenian lawyer in the U.S. whose office employs about 300 lawyers and legal people. He was thinking like the others. But when I explained my viewpoint, he saw that I was correct.

I am not a politician and don’t understand anything about that field. I only know one thing. We have a tiny and unfortunate country that is almost dying off for the second time. And we are still talking about other things.

NA – But you were always engaged in the genocide issue, especially when it was debated in the French Senate. You even spoke before the Senate…

CA – And what did it all accomplish?

NA – You participated in demonstrations and rallies…

CA – And what good did it serve?

NA – Do you really believe that we are not moving forward?

CA – We haven’t been advancing either back then or now. Never. I am periodically invited to Turkey. Once, the Turkish foreign minister even invited me to spend my vacation there. He wanted to reach an agreement on what the Armenians were demanding. But let’s not play political games for partisan interests.

I am not interested who becomes the next president of Armenia. All I want is for the border to open so that this country can catch its breath a bit.

NA – So, you are sending messages in bottles out on the water.

CA – Yes, I always say good things about Turks. I think they are an interesting nation. There’s not one Armenian in Turkey that doesn’t like the Turks. Perhaps they don’t like their manner, their politics…but not the people themselves. My aim is to move forward just a bit.

NA – Aren’t you disappointed regarding the failure of the 2009 Protocols signed in Zurich?

CA – They were signed in the evening but the next day they were made meaningless. I wasn’t disappointed because I suspected that would happen. No such treaty was ever signed with the Turks in such a manner. A moment always arises when either they compromise or we aren’t capable of doing anything. Such an inclination benefits their strategic position. They feel their strength and are more disinclined towards compromising. So, what should we do? I hope that we do nothing more. There is no need to place any more hope on me. It has tired me out. I don’t want to waste my energies on senseless matters.

NA – So we have to be smart on both sides?

CA – Yes, in a word. In all cases we must act and come forth with initiatives. I would like to ask you the following – How long have the Turks lived on our lands? And I’m not even talking about the fact that they seized those lands from us. I’m talking about prior to that.

NA – Centuries, About 1,000 years.

CA – The Germans no longer demand Alsace-Lorraine and we French no longer think about the Ruhr. We should at least get smart. We must understand the reality of things. All this has ended. I’ll say more. Even if they return those lands to us, who will go there and live? No one. Let’s get real.

NA – But don’t you think that the Armenian authorities have a good mastery of the issue and that steps are being taken in the right direction?

CA – I know nothing about that. We speak to the authorities regarding this the next time. I do not want to take any steps without getting their opinion. All I know is that their priority is the opening of the border. It’s the outside world that is based on this war of words. Domestically, they are suffering from it.

NA – Don’t you believe, however, that the basic reason for the exodus from Armenia is the domestic system which offers no hope to the population? And we are not even taking into account the military situation in Karabakh. So must we compromise in this issue as well?

CA – Yes. This is how it is. We are doing nothing to help the people living there. Just the opposite. I know awful stories about the Mafiosi who are literally devouring the villagers on their lands. Those Mafia members must be executed. Things cannot continue like this. Those who want to become the Mafia should go live in other countries, not in Armenia. For the love of God, don’t fight against your own people.

NA – What’s your priority regarding the Armenian Question?

CA – I want agreement. I want the Turks to recognize that which happened. For me it’s the same; genocide or another word. Even if they use that word, what will it give me?

I want them to recognize the massacres. That’s the description they used at the time. The entire world spoke of the massacres. And all of a sudden, starting in the 1950s, we got transfixed on the term ‘genocide’. Even though it equates with the reality, it’s a tough pill to swallow.

(To be continued)

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In Memory Of The Millions of Victims Of The Orthodox Christian Holocaust

Compiled by Rev. Archimandrite Nektarios Serfes
Boise, Idaho
U.S.A.

History Of Asia Minor: 1894-1923

During 1894-1923 the Ottoman Empire conducted a policy of Genocide of the Christian population living within its extensive territory. The Sultan, Abdul Hamid, first put forth an official governmental policy of genocide against the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire in 1894.

Systematic massacres took place in 1894-1896 when Abdul savagely killed 300,000 Armenians throughout the provinces. Massacres recurred, and in 1909 government troops killed, in the towns of Adana alone, over 20,000 Christian Armenians.

When WW1 broke out the The Ottoman Empire was ruled by the “Young Turk” dictatorship which allied itself with Germany. Turkish government decided to eliminate the whole of the Christian population of Greeks, Armenians, Syrians and Nestorians. The government slogan, “Turkey for the Turks”, served to encourage Turkish civilians on a policy of ethnic cleansing.

The next step of the Armenian Genocide began on 24 April 1915 with the mass arrest, and ultimate murder, of religious, political and intellectual leaders in Constantinople and elsewhere in the empire. Then, in every Armenian community, a carefully planned Genocide unfolded: Arrest of clergy and other prominent persons, disarmament of the population and Armenian soldiers serving in the Ottoman army, segregation and public execution of leaders and able-bodied men, and the deportation to the deserts of the remaining Armenian women, children and elderly. Renowned historian Arnold Toynbee wrote that “the crime was concerted very systematically for there is evidence of identical procedure from over fifty places.”

The Genocide started from the border districts and seacoasts, and worked inland to the most remote hamlets. Over 1.5 million Armenian Christians, including over 4,000 bishops and priests, were killed in this step of the Genocide.

The Greek Christians, particularly in the Black Sea area known as Pontus, who had been suffering from Turkish persecutions and murders all the while, saw the Turks turn more fiercely on them as WW1 came to a close. The Allied Powers, at a peace conference in Paris in 1919, rewarded Greece for her support by inviting Prime Minister Venizelos to occupy the city of Smyrna with its rich hinterlands, and they placed the province under Greek control. This action greatly angered the Turks. The Greek occupation was a peaceful one but drew immediate fire from Turkish forces in the outlying areas. When the Greek army farmed out to protect its people, a full-fledged war broke out between Greece and Turkey (the Greco-Turkish war).

The Treaty of Sevres, signed in 1920 to end WW1 and which provided for an independent Armenia, was never ratified. The treaty’s terms changed not long after the ink dried as England, France and Italy each began secretly bargaining with Mustafa Kemel (Ataturk) in order to gain the right to exploit oil fields in the Mozul (now Iraq). Betrayed by the Allied Powers, the Greek military front, after 40 long months of war, collapsed and retreated as the Turks began again to occupy Asia Minor.

September 1922 signaled the end of the Greek and Armenian presence in the city of Smyrna. On 9 September 1922, the Turks entered Smyrna; and after systematically murdering the Armenians in their own homes, the forces of Ataturk turned on the Greeks whose numbers had swelled, with the addition of refugees who had fled their villages in Turkey’s interior, to upwards of 400,000 men, women and children.

The conquering Turks went from house to house, looting, pillaging, raping and murdering the population. Finally, when the wind had turned so that it was blowing toward the sea so that the small Turkish quarter at the rear of the city was not in danger, Turkish forces, led by their officers, poured kerosene on the buildings and homes of the Greek and Armenian sectors and set them afire. Thus, any remaining live inhabitants of the city were flushed out to be caught between a wall of fire and the sea. The pier of Smyrna became a scene of final desperation as the approaching flames forced many thousands to jump to their death or to be consumed by fire.

The Allied warships and shore patrol of the French, British and American military were eyewitnesses to the events. George Horton, the American Consul in Smyrna, likened the finale at Smyrna to the Roman destruction of Carthage. He is quoted in Smyrna (1922, written by Marjorie Dobkin) as saying: Yet there was not fleet of Christian battleships at Carthage looking on a situation for which their governments were responsible.” This horrible act unleashed the last phase of the genocide against the Christians of Turkish Asia Minor.

On 9 September 1997, a series of speakers and memorial services, honoring the memory of the 3.5 million Christians who were murdered by Turkish persecutions from 1894-1923, were held in the greater Baltimore Washington area. The memorial service was conducted by the choirs of St. Mary’s Armenian Church, St. Katherine’s Greek Orthodox Church, Fr. George Alexson of St. Katherine’s, Fr. Vertanes Katayjian of St. Mary’s and other Orthodox clergy.

The 75th anniversary of the Christian Holocaust was memorialized on 9 September 1997, the date in 1922 of the destruction of the city of Smyrna. This memorial honors the memory of over 3.5 million Christians who were murdered by Turkish persecutions from 1894-1923. Not only was this the memorial of the Holocaust of Smyrna (now Izmir) and the martyrdom of Smyrna’s Metropolitan Chrysostomos, but also of the 3.5 million Christians who perished during the first Holocaust of this century. But the events of 1922 are not an isolated incident. The atrocities committed by Turkish forces against a civilian population began before WW1 and have never ended. This event seeks to expose the continuum of a Turkish campaign of persecution, deportation, and murder designed to rid Asia of its Christian populace.

GREEKS

1914 400,000 conscripts perished in forced labor brigades

1922 100,000 massacred or burned alive in Smyrna

1916-1922 350,000 Pontions massacred or killed during forced deportations

1914-1922 900,000 perish from maltreatment, starvation and massacres; total of all other areas of Asia Minor

TOTAL: 1,750,000 Greek Christians martyred 1914-1922

ARMENIANS

1894-1896 300,000 massacred

1915-1916 1,500,000 perish in massacres and forced deportations (with subsidiaries to 1923)

1922 30,000 massacred or burned alive in Smyrna

TOTAL: 1,800,000 Armenian Christians martyred 1894-1923

SYRIANS AND NESTORIANS

1915-1917 100,000 Christians massacred

The native population of Asia Minor traces its Christian roots to the early days of Christianity. the Armenians, an ancient people, trace their origins back 2500 years. In 301 AD. the Armenian King Dftad declared Christianity as the kingdom’s official religion, making Armenia the first Christian political state in the world. The migration of Greek tribes to Asia Minor began just before 2,000 BC and the Greeks built dozens of cities such as Smyrna, Phocaea, Pergamon, Ephesus and Byzantium (Constantinople). The native inhabitants of Asia Minor, among the first to accept the message of Christianity, were later to be persecuted and uprooted from their lands because of that same faith. Turkish tribes plagued the region. Later another tribe, the Oyuz Turks who embraced Islam and ultimately produced the Ottoman Turks, conquered Persia, the Caliphate of Baghdad, and then the whole area presently occupied by Syria, Iraq and Palestine.

Under the Ottoman Empire the Christians suffered a steady decline. Forced conversions to Islam, the abduction of children to serve in the fanatical Janissary corps, persecutions and oppression reduced the Christian population. Oppression intensified, leading to Genocide. Christian clergy were a constant target of Turkish persecution, particularly once the 1894 policy of Armenian genocide had been declared by sultan Abdul Hamid.

Victims of horrible torture, many Orthodox clergy were martyred for their faith. Among the first was Metropolitan Chrysostomos who was martyred, not just to kill a man but, to insult a sacred religion and an ancient and honorable people. Chrysostomos was enthroned as Metropolitan of Smyrna on 10 May 1910. Metropolitan Chrysostomos courageously opposed the anti Christian rage of the turks and sought to raise international pressure against the persecution of Turkish Christians. He wrote many letters to European leaders and to the western press in an effort to expose the genocide policies of the Turks. In 1922, in unprotected Smyrna, Chrysostomos said to those begging him to flee: “It is the tradition of the Greek Church and the duty of the priest to stay with his congregation.”

On 9 September crowds were rushing into the cathedral for shelter when Chrysostomos, pale from fasting and lack of sleep, led his last prayer. The Divine Liturgy ended as Turkish police came to the church and led Chrysostomos away. The Turkish General Nouredin Pasha, known as the “butcher of Ionia”, first spat on the Metropolitan and informed him that a tribunal in Angora (now Ankara) had already condemned him to death. A mob fell upon Chrysostomos and tore out his eyes. Bleeding profusely, he was dragged through the streets by his beard. He was beaten and kicked and parts of his body were cut off. All the while Chrysostomos, his face covered with blood, prayed: “Holy Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” Every now and then, when he had the strength, he would raise his hand and bless his persecutors; a Turk, realizing what the Metropolitan was doing, cut off his hand with a sword. Metropolitan Chrysostomos was then hacked to pieced by the angry mob.

Among the hundreds of Armenian clergy who were persecuted and murdered were Bishop Khosrov Behrigian and Very Reverend Father Mgrdich’ Chghladian.

Bishop Behrigian (1869-1915) was born in Zara and became the primate for the Diocese of Caesarea/Kayseri in 1915. He was arrested by Turkish police upon his return from Etchmiadzin where he had just been consecrated bishop. Informed of his fate, the bishop asked for a bullet to the head. Deliberately ignoring his request, the police tied him to a “yataghan” where sheep were butchered an then proceeded to hack his body apart while he was still alive.

Father Chghladian was born in Tatvan. In May 1915, as part of the campaign of mass arrests, deportations and murders, the priest was tortured and displayed in a procession, led by sheiks and dervishes while accompanied by drums, through the streets of Dikranagerd. Once the procession returned to the mosque, in the presence of government officials, the sheiks poured oil over the priest and burned him alive.

Four of the martyred bishops who were murdered between 1921-1922 are today elevated to sainthood in the Greek Orthodox Church: They are, in addition to Metropolitan Chrysostomos, Bishops Efthimios, Gregorios and Ambrosios.

Bishop Efthimios of Amasia was captured by the Turkish police and tortured daily for 41 days. In the last days of his life he chanted his own funeral memorial until finally dying in his cell on 29 May 1921. Three days later a written order for his execution arrived from Mustafa Kemal (Ataturk).

Metropolitan Gregorios of Kydonion remained with his church until the end, helping 20,000 of his 35,000 parishioners escape to Mytilene and other free parts of Greece. On 3 October 1922, the remaining 15,000 Orthodox Christians were executed; the Metropolitan was saved in order to be buried alive.

Metropolitan Ambrosios of Moshonesion, along with 12 priests and 6,000 Christians, were sent by the Turks on a forced deportation march to Central Asia Minor. All of them perished on the road, some slain by Turkish irregulars and civilians, the remainder left to die of starvation. Bishop Ambrosios died on 15 September 1922 when Turkish police nailed horseshoes to his feet and then cut his body into pieces.

“I was five or six years old in 1922, and I still remember the songs of Akrita and the mourning of the Greek women who carried baskets full of severed heads down from the mountains. I will never forget the women who suddenly realized that one of the heads in the basket she carried was that of her son.” – Constantine Koukides, refugee from Pontius

“I have given orders to my Death Units to exterminate without mercy or pity, men, women, and children belonging to the Polish speaking race. It is only in this manner we can acquire the vital territory which we need. After all, who remembers the extermination of the Armenians?” – Adolf Hitler, 22 August 1939.

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